I argue with Mike@LG about criticizing the Lakers' FO

Mike@LG and I went back and forth on LakersGround.net on 8/05/07.

I started things off with:
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A Mad Chinaman wrote:
How does Mitch compares to others such as the GMs with the Spurs, Suns, Memphis (Jerry West - when he was there), Jerry West (when he was with the Lakers), Bill Sharman (w/Lakers), Toronto (not that Congelo?!?! is there), Knicks (Isiah), Dallas, etc.

This question is not asking on the level of success, but whether it was good decision at the time.

A set up for another FO bashing thread

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Mike@LG comes back with:
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1. The question and statements provided by the original poster of this thread is valid.

2. The response provided by melo about Sky's post was factual.

3. No criticism was made of the FO. Just laying out the facts.
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I reply:
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Mike@LG wrote:
1. The question and statements provided by the original poster of this thread is valid.

What statements did A Mad Chinaman make? He asked for an assessment of Mitch during a period when there is a regular parade of threads about how Mitch needs to be fired.

Mike@LG wrote:
2. The response provided by melo about Sky's post was factual.

And completely unresponsive to the OP. Ginobili was the final pick in the second round of the draft. Does that mean every other GM who drafted in that second round is incompetent?

Mike@LG wrote:
3. No criticism was made of the FO. Just laying out the facts.

If you pick and choose at any GM's record, you can make any GM look bad.

Dennis O'Connor's drafting for Utah, 2001-2004
2001 - #24 Raul Lopez
Took two years to sign him. In his rookie year, averaged 7.0 ppg in 82 games. In his sophomore year, averaged 5.2 ppg in 31 games. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA

2002 - #18 Curtis Borchardt (through trade)
Sat out his rookie year because of injuries (was injury prone in college). Played 16 games his second year, 12.8 mpg in 67 games his third year. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA

2003 - #19 Sasha Pavlovic
Played 14.5 mpg in 79 games his rookie year. Was taken by Charlotte in expansion draft and then traded to Cleveland

2004 - #14 Kris Humphries and #16 Kirk Snyder
Kris Humphries played 2 unimpressive seasons in Utah before being traded for Rafael Araujo. Kirk Snyder had an unimpressive rookie season then was in a trade for Greg Ostertag.

5 first round picks over 4 drafts and all Utah had to show for it was Greg Ostertag and Rafael Araujo. Really, really bad drafting. Is O'Connor an incompetent boob?
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Mike@LG replies:
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Dennis_D wrote:
What statements did A Mad Chinaman make? He asked for an assessment of Mitch during a period when there is a regular parade of threads about how Mitch needs to be fired.

A simple request of information and question. There was no criticism, yet, your choice of words leads this thread to be a thread of criticism.

Dennis_D wrote:
And completely unresponsive to the OP. Ginobili was the final pick in the second round of the draft. Does that mean every other GM who drafted in that second round is incompetent?

No, because that's just one example. Sky listed multiple examples in back to back years.

Dennis_D wrote:
If you pick and choose at any GM's record, you can make any GM look bad.

Dennis O'Connor's drafting for Utah, 2001-2004
2001 - #24 Raul Lopez
Took two years to sign him. In his rookie year, averaged 7.0 ppg in 82 games. In his sophomore year, averaged 5.2 ppg in 31 games. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA

2002 - #18 Curtis Borchardt (through trade)
Sat out his rookie year because of injuries (was injury prone in college). Played 16 games his second year, 12.8 mpg in 67 games his third year. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA

2003 - #19 Sasha Pavlovic
Played 14.5 mpg in 79 games his rookie year. Was taken by Charlotte in expansion draft and then traded to Cleveland

2004 - #14 Kris Humphries and #16 Kirk Snyder
Kris Humphries played 2 unimpressive seasons in Utah before being traded for Rafael Araujo. Kirk Snyder had an unimpressive rookie season then was in a trade for Greg Ostertag.

5 first round picks over 4 drafts and all Utah had to show for it was Greg Ostertag and Rafael Araujo. Really, really bad drafting. Is O'Connor an incompetent boob?

If you want to Isolate draft, sure, it's equally bad. But considering you're pointing out Kevin O'Connor 2001-2004, then sure. He's just as incompetent being draft specific.

If you want overall picture? He got Okur from Detroit, Boozer, and drafted Deron Williams.

Did O'Connor dramatically improve team record? Yes. Did he build a franchise core? Yes.
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I reply:
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Mike@LG wrote:

Dennis_D wrote:
What statements did A Mad Chinaman make? He asked for an assessment of Mitch during a period when there is a regular parade of threads about how Mitch needs to be fired.

A simple request of information and question. There was no criticism, yet, your choice of words leads this thread to be a thread of criticism.

I am not sure I follow you when you say, "There was no criticism, yet, your choices of words leads this thread to be a thread of criticism". Just about every thread recently has become a thread of criticism of the FO. davidse, melo061 and calistrtballr all criticized the FO before I posted.

Mike@LG wrote:

Dennis_D wrote:
And completely unresponsive to the OP. Ginobili was the final pick in the second round of the draft. Does that mean every other GM who drafted in that second round is incompetent?

No, because that's just one example. Sky listed multiple examples in back to back years.

The OP asked for a comparison of Mitch to other GM's. The post from melo061 that you cited (which included the comments from Sky) instead bashed some of Mitch's move. I guess I would have been clearer if I had not included the comment about Ginobili. I tried to be responsive to the OP being listing the draft picks of another GM who most think is a successful GM. Every GM makes mistakes, but many posters here seem to demand that Mitch never make a mistake.

Mike@LG wrote:

Dennis_D wrote:
If you pick and choose at any GM's record, you can make any GM look bad.

Dennis O'Connor's drafting for Utah, 2001-2004
2001 - #24 Raul Lopez
Took two years to sign him. In his rookie year, averaged 7.0 ppg in 82 games. In his sophomore year, averaged 5.2 ppg in 31 games. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA

2002 - #18 Curtis Borchardt (through trade)
Sat out his rookie year because of injuries (was injury prone in college). Played 16 games his second year, 12.8 mpg in 67 games his third year. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA

2003 - #19 Sasha Pavlovic
Played 14.5 mpg in 79 games his rookie year. Was taken by Charlotte in expansion draft and then traded to Cleveland

2004 - #14 Kris Humphries and #16 Kirk Snyder
Kris Humphries played 2 unimpressive seasons in Utah before being traded for Rafael Araujo. Kirk Snyder had an unimpressive rookie season then was in a trade for Greg Ostertag.

5 first round picks over 4 drafts and all Utah had to show for it was Greg Ostertag and Rafael Araujo. Really, really bad drafting. Is O'Connor an incompetent boob?

If you want to Isolate draft, sure, it's equally bad. But considering you're pointing out Kevin O'Connor 2001-2004, then sure. He's just as incompetent being draft specific.

Oops on O'Connor's first name. As I looked up his name on HoopsHype.com, I don't know how I screwed it up.

I don't see how you can say wasting #14, #16, #18, #19 and #24 picks was comparable to what Mitch did (#20 Rush, #24 Cook, #27 Vujacic) in the same time period.

The criticism quoted from Sky was on Mitch's first three drafts. Mitch has drafted three times since then. Perhaps Mitch learned something from his first few drafts? Angel had the first reply and he said, "That is three in a row drafting winners in the last three drafts. He must be doing something right." No one disagreed with Angel but instead went further back in time so they could bash Mitch. Will people never move on from the "Mitch didn't draft Prince" pick in evaluating Mitch?

Mike@LG wrote:
If you want overall picture? He got Okur from Detroit, Boozer, and drafted Deron Williams.

Did O'Connor dramatically improve team record? Yes. Did he build a franchise core? Yes.

On overall picture, I think Mitch stands up pretty well. 2 NBA championships, a trip to the NBA Finals, then rebuilding the team in 2 years until a young competitor. Major injuries to three starters (Mihm, Odom and Walton) set the team back last year, but the team has a lot of young promising talent in the pipeline (Bynum, Turiaf, Farmar, Critterton).
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